Panasonic DMR-ES10S review

Beyond about 2 hours, especially with an imperfect signal, expect your video to be turn into macroblock-ridden kibble. Barely better than a VCD.

Total BS.
I (and MANY others) have recorded up to 3 hrs with no macroblocks.
The Panasonics may not be the best but what you have said is totally false. You must own a defective machine. I suggest you return it.

I own a Panasonic E-80 and used it for archiving old VHS. I usually do the FR mode to about 2h46min to maximize the space of a DVD-R. There are definitely "macroblocks" visible and I'm only watching it on a 21inch TV I bought 9 years ago- I shudder at the thought of watching it on a larger TV. However, this is still tolerable to me; it's not as bad as the 6 hour EP mode (which looks more like VCD quality to me). And I say this because the "quality" on the E-80 (for my archival purposes) was decent enough for me to purchase a E-85 several months ago (used the E-80 for over a year and archived hundreds of tapes). The E-85 just plain SUCKS!!!! I compared both the E-80 and E-85 on identical recordings of the same broadcast, and on the same recording mode, the E-85 looks noticeably worse (with the blocks) and even my non-discerning friends agree. Several other posters have said the same thing on the avsforum, so neither Lordsmurf nor I are making stories up. I don't understand why there's a difference between the E-80 and the E-85, but what was still acceptable on the E-80 to me is not on the E-85. That unit records SP at a quality like the LP on the E-80. I can't believe it looked so bad.

So for the ES-10...... Since it sounds like there's no real signifcant improvement over the last generation of Panasonic recorders, I'll wait for better units.

I'm the HAPPY owner of the ES10. This is my first foray into the DVD Recorder world and for what I intend to use it for, I couldn't be more pleased.

My main interest was to be able to transfer our 8mm camcorder tapes to DVD and to retire our VCR. I have no interest in transfering any VHS.

Like others have stated in this and other forums, it all depends on the source material. The few camcorder tapes that I have transferred, so far, look just like the original to me, whereas when I have recorded a cable signal, it varies with the channel.

Most of the disagreements, in the forums, seem to be over the LP or EP settings. Having only used a VHS for the past 4 years, ( I was always a BETA person), I always used the SP. Even with the BETA, I always the best setting.
Why would someone want to use the slower settings?

Lordsmurf, who I've learned much from on his "No More Coaster Site", seams to use his recorders for different reasons that what I would, so I may not be for him but it is for me.

Originally Posted by ejai

Thanks Lordsmurf, it gives me another option to consider. I am thinking about waiting for the HD recorders, but I am a bit let down about some of the security features that will be associated with HD recorders. I have to research this issue more closely. 8)

What exactly do you mean by security issues?

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The actual BLACK levels are a bit too dark in DARKER, and far to light in LIGHTER. Where's the middle setting?

This is one of my biggest gripes with the Panasonic E85. It doesn't seem that this issue will ever be fixed. I notice it particularly when playing the DVDrs on other DVD players. Maybe something is kerflooey with my setup, but there's a couple VHS clips I recorded on my E85 that have scenes where you almost can't see what is going on. (I should add that I find my Pioneer 520 a bit too dark in certain scenes as well.)

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The $199 price is also very competitive. But the machine will add noise to your VHS recordings, or extended off-air recordings. You have to understand that.

I am not sure what you mean "will add noise to your VHS reocordings"? I have a DMRE20 that I have use to transfer VHS recordings and found it to produce a better quality DVD then the original VHS. Before buying a machine I was told this would be the case but was skeptical as I found it hard to believe I would end up with a better recording than the original but that has been the case. Recently I thought I would upgrade to a newer unit assuming technology had advanced in the years between the DMRE20 and current models so I bought a DR2 Toshiba. To say I was disappointed would certianly be an understatement. The quality from the Toshiba was very inferior compared to even the old DMRE20. I took it back and purchased a DMRE55 and am very pleased with the DVDs I get from it, and have now purchased a DMRES10. I have a 52" TV so it is fairly easy to spot any problems or inferior quality from the transfers from VHS.

I have never tried the JVC or Pioneer but find it hard to believe they could improve on what I get from the Panasonic, as I simply don't see anywhere where there could be an improvement.

Again I don't know what you mean when you say "add noise". This would seem to be something that would be easily seen however sure cannot detect any on any of my recordings.

Here is a capture from a DVD created on the Panasonic DMRE20 transfered from a EP VHS tape.

Note I had to decrease the resolution due to the file size limits.

What I was referring to when I said improves quality was it removes some of the noice on poorer recordings or ones that are somewhat grainy.

Also if you look at a VHS tape and find a straight edge, like a door or door jamb you will notice it appears very jagged however once transferred using the Panasonic that affect is gone or at least minimized.

My TV is not bad and although my eyesight may not be what it was 20 years ago I'm not blind either.

I am far more fussy than most people I know when in comes to quality and while I can nit pick the Panasonic I sure can't find the problems you have mentioned unless I record in EP mode, which is never aside from testing. If I experienced the problems you have sighted I would have returned it immediately like I did with the Toshiba, as the quality there was definitely inferior to the Panasonic.

Again I can't knock or comment on the JVC or Pioneer as I have not tried either but can say I have not experienced the problems you have mentioned on the Panasonic.

@ jackedup

I rather liked your pic. It really looked good, fwiw.

But, I agree w/ LS on pics. They help demo certain aspects of test,
but not thourgh enough. Plus, when demoing your own set of tests, they
really should be based on something that everyone has (or has access to)
for there own tests/thursts. I hate it when a user throws in a completely
original (never used in any previous tests) in a case scenario demo (like yours)
So, using that same test clip (in your pic for instance) throwing a
video sample (vob) would be ok, but however, then others won't be able
to reproduce for their own satisfaction cause of the lack in source materials.
I just wish we would all use the same script when testing new things.

I also agree w/ LS on the issue with transfering DVD to VHS (then capturing
from it) You will get washed out or bad looking video output. I have in
every test scenario I ran through it.. (using my "Fifth Element" DVD) and it
just looks so bad. But, according to your pic above, your DVD -to- VHS
and "dvd recorded" final results look pretty good to me (IMO, and TBO, to be
honest)

Can you post your specs:
* VCR
* DVD palyer
* other

Anyways.

I did like your pic though, as it was very clean, though from a DVD medium

-vhelp 3285

I've had the Panasonic DMR-ES10S for a couple weeks now and in my tests I've found the PQ to be great in XP mode but a bit blocky in SP mode which is unacceptable. Don't care about LP mode, I just wish my unit worked well in SP. Unfortunately I'm returning the unit which is a bummer because the price ($199) was right.

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

like a door or door jamb you will notice it appears very jagged however once transferred using the Panasonic that affect is gone or at least minimized

I figured this was it. This is a very very slight "TBC" (maybe not a true line TBC, but rather some sync filters, the "virtual" TBC). This is expected. I mentioned that one. The ES10 has significantly improved these.

If you have a super-sized tv set, and it's a good one, your setup may slap a soften filter across the image by default, to lessen the "blow up" effect. This may hide mosquito noise. But you'd easily still see blacks, though more contorted when soft, not easy to see as blocks, just smudges.

But the blocks and noise are there. It's a common complaint.

I asked before but what exactly do you consider noise, as I sure can't see it?

I would also say that I think I experienced the mosquito noise you were talking about. I hooked up the DMRES10 to my VCR, and then went from the DMRES10 to the DMRE55 and recorded both at the same time from the same tape. When I played the two DVDs back using picture in picture to compare the two I found what I assume you are referring to as mosquito noise from the DMRES10 but not the DMRE55, which surprised me. I then decided to record from satellite to both however as the DMRE55 was already connected to the satellite I ran it the other way and had the DMRES10 as the last item in line before outputting to the TV. Now I saw the mosquito noise on the DMRE55 but not on the DMRES10 from the same recordings so it would appear the only time I see mosquito noise is when the output is run through anther piece of electronics before going to the TV.

Originally Posted by vhelp

@ jackedup

I rather liked your pic. It really looked good, fwiw.

But, I agree w/ LS on pics. They help demo certain aspects of test,
but not thourgh enough. Plus, when demoing your own set of tests, they
really should be based on something that everyone has (or has access to)
for there own tests/thursts. I hate it when a user throws in a completely
original (never used in any previous tests) in a case scenario demo (like yours)
So, using that same test clip (in your pic for instance) throwing a
video sample (vob) would be ok, but however, then others won't be able
to reproduce for their own satisfaction cause of the lack in source materials.
I just wish we would all use the same script when testing new things.

I also agree w/ LS on the issue with transfering DVD to VHS (then capturing
from it) You will get washed out or bad looking video output. I have in
every test scenario I ran through it.. (using my "Fifth Element" DVD) and it
just looks so bad. But, according to your pic above, your DVD -to- VHS
and "dvd recorded" final results look pretty good to me (IMO, and TBO, to be
honest)

Can you post your specs:
* VCR
* DVD palyer
* other

Anyways.

I did like your pic though, as it was very clean, though from a DVD medium

-vhelp 3285

I have a Sharp Hi-Fi and a Toshiba Hi-Fi VCRs, both 4 head with 19m heads. The image above was recorded from one of the two VCRs mentioned above but don't know for sure which one, and was recorded on a RAM disk with my old DMRE20 Panasonic. I took the RAM disk to my computer and loaded it to my hard drive to author it. I used PowerDVD to capture the above image from the RAM disk on my computer.

@ jackedup

Your setup is interesting. Still, its hard for me to believe the
pic you posted, (but there it is) given your setup:

* DVD -to- VHS -to- dvd_recorder

(It looks to me that your DVD player seems to have its black-level
reproduction output very close to what it should be, and your VCR is
capturing/recording it very accurately)

It could be the units capabilities to handle these dvd-vhs scenarios.
In my case:

* Apex_AD-1500 -to- JVC_S-VHS_HR-S3910U

..and my colors were so washed out or too dark, or whatever.., depending
on which scenario of configuration/hardware I used.

Did you turn on any filtering on your dvd_recorder unit ??

I was wondering.., if you have the "Fifth Element" DVD disk, could
you try the same test scneario and post your results (pic) here ??
.
(the scene I tried this with was, where they start the scene at the
McDonold's, and the two Polices are recieving their order, and the
radio message comes on to keep a look out for.. during all this)
.
If its too much trouble, I applogies..

..Otherwise

Anyways, thanks for your input.
-vhelp 3288

ps: let me guess.. is your model the Sharp 600 ??

-vhelp 3289

Lordsmurf
I believe you mentioned in another thread that the ILO was one of the best recorders for transferring VHS to DVD. Is there a particular model or any model? I thought I might pick up a used one on EBay just to compare it to the Panasonics I have but don't want to buy one that isn't the one you were talking about.

I have seen a DVDR04 listed. Would that model me one of the ones you were referring to?

Thank you

The two major models are:

* DVDR04 - (+R/ +RW disks) (non-hard drive)
* DVDHR04 - hard drive model

Both produce same results. And yes. Many claim it is very good
for VHS, which is dependant upon the VCR capabilities (ie, s-video;
black-level; other color space conversion hardware; etc)

I have the DVDR04 and Pioneer 220-S units

-vhelp 3290

Originally Posted by vhelp

The two major models are:

* DVDR04 - (+R/ +RW disks) (non-hard drive)
* DVDHR04 - hard drive model

Both produce same results. And yes. Many claim it is very good
for VHS, which is dependant upon the VCR capabilities (ie, s-video;
black-level; other color space conversion hardware; etc)

I have the DVDR04 and Pioneer 220-S units

-vhelp 3290

Thanks
Also I will get back to you in a bit on your other post, just been tied up for a bit.

Thanks again

No rush. I look forward to more VHS sample pics like the above

-vhelp 3293

Ok. I re-read and re-read through this interesting topic.
This time, I cought my mistake, and missunderstood the process
and thought you used the following in your pic demo:

* VCR[EP mode] -> Sharp_dvd_player -> DMR-ES10S[ram disk]

After re-reading numerous times this topic, it seems to me, that
your process was actually:

* VCR[EP mode] -> DMR-ES10S[ram disk] -> powerdvd[copy = 16-235]

(the pic still looks good, though it explains the 16-235 look)

@ LS

Sorry for the shift in OT here (if that's what it seems)

-vhelp 3294